Curse

Lanier · Sep 11, 2010, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Hmmm, what if they just changed spirit damage type to dark or some other non armor ignoring damage?

thats... not a bad idea. I like it.

UnChosen · Sep 11, 2010, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Hmmm, what if they just changed spirit damage type to dark or some other non armor ignoring damage?

We don't need another elementalist.

gremlin · Sep 11, 2010, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

I'm not sure what your view on this actually is based on the last post, but Rit lightning damage spells have always been much different from the Ele's mostly single target lightning spikes.

Rits never replaced Monk healers. Like in their lightning attacks, they healed much differently, often relying on synergizing with spirits. They were an alternative for easy areas, but never in a serious team build did I dare try to replace a Monk with Divine Favor.

Assassins are popular because of a single OP'd skill and its' mechanic which should never exist in this game: Shadow Form. They have other great uses mostly demonstrated in PvP, but because of this single skill nearly everything else in PvE is deemed null.

My point has remained the same since my first post on this thread.

The suggestion made by others is that the sos skill and or spirit spam builds are far to overpowered.

I dispute they are any more overpowered than any other exploit type build used to farm vanquish or otherwise solo areas.
The first such build I guess was unlimited Minions though that is before my time so not sure.
Each of the classes in turn has had the ability to do the same.

I mentioned Ritualist healers because there have been several posts stating that Rits have replaced Monks in this area I was assuming this was true.

I then mentioned a lightning damage build which was my first build used by my ritualist because I couldn't formulate any other decent build.

Before they nerf sos they should give the Ritualist skills the once over so we have something to replace it.

Finally my constant point over many threads is that all the classes should have at least one thing they do well and better than any other class so they can find a place in parties.

FyrFytr998 · Sep 11, 2010, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Finally my constant point over many threads is that all the classes should have at least one thing they do well and better than any other class so they can find a place in parties.

Umm...all classes do in fact have something they do better than other classes. Just cause other classes can run Spirit spam doesn't make them better. Ritualists have bigger and better spirits than other classes.

Essence Snow · Sep 11, 2010, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyrFytr998

Umm...all classes do in fact have something they do better than other classes. Just cause other classes can run Spirit spam doesn't make them better. Ritualists have bigger and better spirits than other classes.

Just curious, but what to Dervs do better? Avatars?

Grj · Sep 12, 2010, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowman relic

people complain about shadow form, SoS, ursan, and yet theirs a white elephant in the room 55's it took areanet i dont remember maybe it was 4 years to succesfully nerf it from soloing the UW, to be honest dying nightmares were just a small inconvience only the dhuum skeletons are actually succesful in keeping them out of the UW and yet ive never seen anyone complain about 55's yet they owned the farming industry for years. how this relates to SoS is 55 was the origional farm so no one complained it became useless in areas or less effective so people used new farms and the current newest meta like 55 is SoS yes its easier but its because people have gotten smarter at making brainless builds

Welcome to the hypocrisy that is the balance crowd.

People cry to get skills nerfed while ignoring other broken skills/builds/items. Completely agree with the 55 and its varients.

Although people might not agree but bitch, cry and whine on this fourm and others loud and/or long enough and anet will eventually take action.

The 55 and its varients finally gets proper hit it deserves after four years. Funny enough after the mass whining to nerf it and shadow form.

Spirit spam has been around for a while now and people wait till now when they can't get into groups or its the only build people will let them run to spawn a thread stating it needs a nerf.

Lanier · Sep 12, 2010, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

Spirit spam has been around for a while now and people wait till now when they can't get into groups or its the only build people will let them run to spawn a thread stating it needs a nerf.

Honestly, I kind of am surprised that a thread wasn't created before now regarding spirit spam. I was going to create a thread awhile back asking for a buch of the OP stuff to be nerfed but after seeing the response people had to the "nerf AP" and the "remove PvE skills" threads, I figured that most people here don't even care about balance anymore. Personally, I think the game would be a lot better if skills were better balanced so that there weren't like a few super OP skills and a bunch of underpowerd skills, but like I said earlier in this thread, Iv kinda given up on promoting my point. Plus, its not like Anet cares enough about us anymore to promote balance. They'll probably just keep advancing power creep with more and more buffs and no nerfs. Buffs for underpowered skills are good but they need to be balanced with nerfs to the OP skills, and while anet has been buffing, they havent been nerfing. Its just really bad for the game the way they are creating power creep.

UnChosen · Sep 12, 2010, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Honestly, I kind of am surprised that a thread wasn't created before now regarding spirit spam. I was going to create a thread awhile back asking for a buch of the OP stuff to be nerfed but after seeing the response people had to the "nerf AP" and the "remove PvE skills" threads, I figured that most people here don't even care about balance anymore. Personally, I think the game would be a lot better if skills were better balanced so that there weren't like a few super OP skills and a bunch of underpowerd skills, but like I said earlier in this thread, Iv kinda given up on promoting my point. Plus, its not like Anet cares enough about us anymore to promote balance. They'll probably just keep advancing power creep with more and more buffs and no nerfs. Buffs for underpowered skills are good but they need to be balanced with nerfs to the OP skills, and while anet has been buffing, they havent been nerfing. Its just really bad for the game the way they are creating power creep.

Considering how many pugs STILL fail with pre-nerf SF/Ursan and the current spirit spam the "power creep" hasn't progressed far enough IMO. Looking at guilds or people who farm all day is not an accurate measure of skills...those people can make ANYTHING seem overpowered.

Pugs + Spirits Spam = Fail. They cast all their spirits into the range of AoE, cast them behind the monks against melee, and/or cast summon spirits every 5 seconds so that their poor spirits won't get hit.

Aba · Sep 12, 2010, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Pugs + Spirits Spam = Fail. They cast all their spirits into the range of AoE, cast them behind the monks against melee, and/or cast summon spirits every 5 seconds so that their poor spirits won't get hit.

Great point, Most Pugs that use the SoS bar like to brind this bad boyhttp://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Summon_Spirits
Which is just asking for AOE to destroy them.

(though when used correctly its very handy)

Lanier · Sep 12, 2010, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Looking at guilds or people who farm all day is not an accurate measure of skills...those people can make ANYTHING seem overpowered.

Im only looking at the power of certain skills relative to the power of other skills available to that profession. In that regard, there is seriously a problem with a very little amount of skills being far more powerful than the vast majority of skills.

gremlin · Sep 12, 2010, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyrFytr998

Umm...all classes do in fact have something they do better than other classes. Just cause other classes can run Spirit spam doesn't make them better. Ritualists have bigger and better spirits than other classes.

When I say each class should be able to do one thing better than other classes I mean better to the extent that they are taken into parties because they can do it better.

Quite a few classes have been sidelined in the past because they were undervalued.
The problem would seem to be that secondary class skills can at times be far to powerful.

The primary skill tracks were supposed to limit this crossover but they do not go far enough.

In role playing terms someone who has spent 30 years learning elemental magic should be miles better at it then a necromancer who took it at evening classes.
In fact it often comes down to a few points here and there.

FyrFytr998 · Sep 13, 2010, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Just curious, but what to Dervs do better? Avatars?

I've got to admit. You got me on that one. I suppose that's why everyone is still QQing for a Derv update, lol. When they first came out with the Dervs, I thought they were making an honest effort to create a meleemancer for all the Wammo fanboys.

reaper with no name · Sep 13, 2010, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Yes, but dervishes are the exception, not the rule. Every other class has at least one thing it can do better than everyone else (though, admittedly, it's often not what the class was originally intended to do).

No one can pull off HB+WA better than a warrior. No one can spam SY and Barrage as well as a Ranger. No one can outclean a monk. Etc, etc.

Comparing Spirit Spam to pre-nerf SF or Ursan is laughable.

Is Spirit Spam overpowered? Of course. It has to be in order to allow Ritualists to compete in today's overpowered meta. Their power is compensation for their unstackability (which prevents everyone in the party from running them).

But can Spirit Spam anally violate the game with a foreign object while robbing it blind at the same time? No. That's the difference between builds like Spirit Spam or 55 (which are powerful) and builds like the old SF or Ursan (which trivialize the entire game).

So, to answer the OP's question, Spirit Spam will be nerfed when it breaks the game.

Kranas · Sep 13, 2010, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

Great point, Most Pugs that use the SoS bar like to brind this bad boyhttp://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Summon_Spirits
Which is just asking for AOE to destroy them.

(though when used correctly its very handy)

I don't know why other people bring summon spirits to PUGs, but for me personally I've usually brought it because I know how impatient most/all PUGs are. I very rarely use it when playing with H/H...They have abit more patience.

Missing HB · Sep 13, 2010, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

So, to answer the OP's question, Spirit Spam will be nerfed when it breaks the game.

Ursan was nothing compared to Shadow form : it's not like you could finish UW or DoA in 30mn thanks to it . Though , it got nerfed in not even a month , while Shadow form is still usable and still breaking the game. So , yes , SoS isn't much compared to SF only and it would be illogical to nerf it , but are they really logical in their updates ?

Gill Halendt · Sep 13, 2010, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Is Spirit Spam overpowered? Of course. It has to be in order to allow Ritualists to compete in today's overpowered meta. Their power is compensation for their unstackability (which prevents everyone in the party from running them).

But can Spirit Spam anally violate the game with a foreign object while robbing it blind at the same time? No. That's the difference between builds like Spirit Spam or 55 (which are powerful) and builds like the old SF or Ursan (which trivialize the entire game).

Completely agree, even tough I think Spirit Spam is a bit too powerful to be simply "competitive in today's overpowered meta".

A slight nerf - like making SoS less mindless, but just as functional, by increasing the recharge / slightly reducing damage / reducing the number of summoned spirits, any of these - would leave Spirit Spam definitely competitive without it being the default choice for pretty much everything in the game.

Is a nerf needed? Not really.
Is it good for the game? As long as it is done properly, with care not to destroy Spirit Spam entirely, it is, IMO, as it stimulates more variety and a more proactive playstile, instead of relying to easy-win buttons.

Xiaquin · Sep 13, 2010, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kranas

I don't know why other people bring summon spirits to PUGs, but for me personally I've usually brought it because I know how impatient most/all PUGs are. I very rarely use it when playing with H/H...They have abit more patience.

I'm not sure why a full spirit build wouldn't bring it. You've never laid them down only to find they don't have line of sight on something? You don't mind them sitting in Breath of Fire or Meteor Shower? You can deal with replacing all spirits instead of moving them up to the next mob? Can't they also be used to body block?

Windf0rce · Sep 13, 2010, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Spirits are hard to balance. It's the type of thing that is either overpowered, or undepowered. I prefer them slightly overpowered, though. Way more fun and it's great to see Rits having their place at the PvE meta. Currently every profession has very strong builds and the Dervish buff is apparently on the horizon.

I prefer having a lot of OP professions which are fun to play as than a lot of worthless ones.

Arata Hijime · Sep 13, 2010, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Uh. Spirits aren't overpowered. Painful Bond is what deals most of the damage.
Just saying.

Kranas · Sep 13, 2010, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I'm not sure why a full spirit build wouldn't bring it. You've never laid them down only to find they don't have line of sight on something? You don't mind them sitting in Breath of Fire or Meteor Shower? You can deal with replacing all spirits instead of moving them up to the next mob? Can't they also be used to body block?

If they're sitting in a breath of fire or meteor shower thats bad on my part...meteor showers especially are easily lured or interrupted. If they're not in line of sight thats awful placement on my part seeing as they have long range attacks. I can deal with replacing spirits because the general cooldown is 30 seconds and fights will last at least around 15 seconds on average. Lastly, yeah they can be used to bodyblock, but I don't see much use in it except from soloing, because they will die to said AoE or general attacks once the enemy switches targets. High spawning power + AoU helps prevent this, but if I'm soloing, I want my spirits to take all the aggro and not to draw any whatsoever to myself. Also, one might argue that a wall of spirits can be more effectively set up without summon spirits as it clumps them all together meaning more durable spirits such as vampirism or bloodsong may not be at the front taking the damage.

I'm not saying I have an issue with someone who wants to use summon spirits on their bar, alot of people seem to treat it as a must no matter what, but I really don't think its indispensable. You can still play fast paced in most areas because most of PvE is a faceroll and you can pull another group to the spirits with proper placement after the first group is toast. If it isn't a faceroll the CD on spirits is probably going to be up again after the battle anyway because it actually took more then 10 seconds.